Curse

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 02, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

DumbNET screwing up their own game again trying to turn PvE into PvP.

Wow how mature. Do you always call people names just because there's a change that you dont like?

Jetdoc · Nov 02, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

If I had to find 8 other people to explore the Realm of Torment in, I would never find a single person. Only people who want to do the mission.

Not sure what you mean by your ambiguous semi-inflammatory statement, but in response to this:

I don't believe that A-Net, in determining changes to AI, had high on its priority list the impact it would have on players that wanted to explore some of the toughest areas of the game with henchmen/heroes.

This impact to hero, henchmen and enemy AI may have been deliberate...that is, they may be "stressing" the Multiplayer part of the MMORPG nature of the game (and yes, please spare me the "GuildWars isn't a MMORPG" in essence discussion).

In other words, using henchmen and heroes have limitations. Before, those limitations were well overcome by the sheer stupidity of enemy AI. Now that the enemy AI has arguably been "improved" (or at least more difficult to exploit, those limitations become glaring. The way to overcome those limitations? Insert a human player or two into the equation.

Again, that's just my take, but I have a feeling that's where A-Net is pushing us. See the many threads about "heroes ruining the multiplayer aspect of the game" out there, and you might agree.

Jetdoc · Nov 02, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

If ANET wanted people to only play together, why would they offer henchmen in the first place? Henchmen are here so that enterprising people who want to go out but don't have time to sit around and wait XX hours for a possible group can do so.

Since you edited your post, I'll follow up on this point.

Henchmen are there for CONVENIENCE. They are not meant to completely supplant human players. In no way did A-Net guarantee that they would perform just as well as your random PuG.

Yet, many players believe that they SHOULD be as good as your average PuG, or even BETTER, as they normally follow your commands. I think it is that attitude that A-Net may be addressing here. There must have been a concern from A-Net developers' standpoint that heroes COULD wind up replacing a very large portion of the multiplayer aspect of the PvE game. And maybe A-Net wanted to address that indirectly - to improve enemy AI to show some of the limitations of the henchmen AI.

Again - to "push" us towards multiplayer PvE, but still making the henchable PvE possible.

Perkunas · Nov 02, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Go into any town or outpost and advertise, "I am clearing fog from map, LFG to help." You will be there 24 hours and maybe get 1 person to help. I need the henches. If the monsters are smarter, then the henches better be too. After just spending 30 minutes trying to get out the gate at copper hammer mines to clear the map around there, and dieing 10 times, I hereby quit this game.

bj91x · Nov 02, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Freaking @#%@$^%!!!! I'm So Freaking Pissed Right Now!!! I Can't Even Beat Grand Court Of Sebelkeh Because Of This Stupid Ai! Before, This Mission Was A Piece Of Cake To Hench Through, But With This Retarded Ai, I Can't Even Beat This Mission!!!

Wtf Anet, Fix This Shit! I Cannot Describe Just How Freaking Pissed Off I Am!

Malice Black · Nov 02, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Copper Hammer was and always will be a bitch to clear even wayyyy back when GW was fresh..

bj91x · Nov 02, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Since you edited your post, I'll follow up on this point.

Henchmen are there for CONVENIENCE. They are not meant to completely supplant human players. In no way did A-Net guarantee that they would perform just as well as your random PuG.

Yet, many players believe that they SHOULD be as good as your average PuG, or even BETTER, as they normally follow your commands. I think it is that attitude that A-Net may be addressing here. There must have been a concern from A-Net developers' standpoint that heroes COULD wind up replacing a very large portion of the multiplayer aspect of the PvE game. And maybe A-Net wanted to address that indirectly - to improve enemy AI to show some of the limitations of the henchmen AI.

Again - to "push" us towards multiplayer PvE, but still making the henchable PvE possible.

No, it's not a "convenience"! This game requires henchies! Seriously, you try to go through the entire game using only people! See how long it would take to just sit there LFGing. Not only that, not everybody likes to play with shitty PUG. I don't know where you get the idea that henchies shouldn't be good, but if you don't like henchies, don't play with henchies. There are people who prefer playing with henchies and DON'T want to play with PUG. You play your game your way without henchies, we'll play the game our way with henchies/heroes!

Now Anet, freaking fix this stupid crap!

garethporlest18 · Nov 02, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

This is awesome, thanks to Anet's failure..well now I can't even explore Domain of Secrets, one of the easiest places in the Realms of Torment. Their awesome placing of mobs on rez shrines has put all of my team at 60DP. Not to mention their fix of the enemy AI's attacks ALL going for the monk. No one else was being damage just him and my prot monk with PS, and him with his heal and the other heal monk couldn't keep him healed.

Nightfall has been ruined for me now, I no longer have fun in it. I cannot kill anything because I keep being wiped out and there is not a damn thing I can do about it. No skill will protect them.

Jetdoc · Nov 02, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj91x

I don't know where you get the idea that henchies shouldn't be good, but if you don't like henchies, don't play with henchies.

Nowhere in my posts did I say that "henchies shouldn't be good." What I said is that people expect them to be as good or even better than your average PuG player.

I am also not telling you how to play the game. You can play with henchmen and heroes to your heart's desire. However, you have to realize that there are limitations to doing so, at least in comparison to doing the same with real players.

PvPers and GvGers realized this aspect long ago.

lunksunkunk · Nov 02, 2006, 03:37 AM // 03:37

I dont know if anyone is gonna read this reply, but im in total aggreement with the opening poster. I usually dont post much, since i tend to read and watch complaints and/or praises unfold over the game itself.

But this "new" AI has defintely made me rethink whether or not i really intend to do anything after the storyline is finished. Its not the fact that PVE "needs" to be more like PVP, honestly, lvl20 char duking it out w/ skillsets and AI thats human, not computer controlled is quite a ways different from lvl24-30 char w/ insane AI and skills that do more dmg than even the decription can go up in its range. Its not just the henchies kiting/aggroing other groups, the monsters also run and aggro other groups from a single hundred blades strike which is kinda pathethic, ecspecially when its not even a monk or ele, but a warrior based monster. To make matters worse, i find it really funny that mesmers monster can interupt a 1/4 second skill with they're own 1/4 second skill. And no, i didnt cast spells back to back, i make them random and spaced out as hell now thanks to their insane AI. But for some reason, they can still land an interupt even nowadays w/ a 1/2 second skill to interupt a 1/4 second skill. Now that is just mathematically/logically incorrect.

Yes, the monks, eles, all the way to even warriors now run marathons across a whole entire map, and just to give u an idea of what its like, i saw an ice siege golem in GF run from the first hill all the way down to the last hill where the bosses were. Thats a little overwhelming, when as a result, u just aggro-ed around 20+ monsters along the way. I'm not sure how this will turn out, even tho i finished the game, im still weary as to how this AI is making the game "more" fun.

Thallandor · Nov 02, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

Wow how mature. Do you always call people names just because there's a change that you dont like?

Well it depends if you agree/disagree to my/most others post on this thread or not. Otherwise personal attacks will invite flames dear cheer leader.

Spending time planning an attack on a group of hard enemies and seening it work brings great thrills. But after a while spending 10 mins + on a group of mobs across a map with 20-30 groups of such enemies = frustration. Nor is playing the rez ping pong game with your party and mobs fun neither.

As to why i said what i did, it just pisses me off if Anet actually play their own game/patches and "dumbnet" reference is subtle imo

Feurin Longcastle · Nov 02, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

The problem with your average pickup group is that they tend to have strong biases as to which classes are useable. 2 monks, an MM, a nuker, and a motley of four others is usually the bill. Assassins and Mesmers usually get shafted in favour of another class. Warriors are often considered interchangeable with spellcasting classes. These factors compound the sometimes lengthy wait LFG'ing in a given mission. Henchies are needed to get around this.

The henchies and heroes as is simply can't handle a small bit of pressure from the mobs. A little e-denial or interupting and suddenly both monks are dead, and the team wipes. You hit 60 DP and you suddenly have to rezone and try again. This isn't fun. It's frustrating.

The state of the AI before the Oct. 31/06 update was such that with a few snaring skills, you could comfortably get through most mobs without deaths. As of now, it's aggravating that my Warrior can't do anything to prevent the healer henchmen from being dropped first.

cloudbunny · Nov 02, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunksunkunk

But for some reason, they can still land an interupt even nowadays w/ a 1/2 second skill to interupt a 1/4 second skill. Now that is just mathematically/logically incorrect.

Not if they have invested in Fast Casting....
It is very easy to write an Uber-effective interrupt mesmer AI. But I guess it is far more work to make a good AI cover all situations in the game.

Anet have to balance a lot of factors in the AI equation:
- 10 proffesions, each with a lot of different variants and playstyles.
- Many different party configurations, with or with out henchies.
- About 1000 skills that either are independent of, enhance or cancel out skills used before it.
- Playstyles used early in the game is different from the ones used late in the game.
- Use of terrain features in the battle.
- Farm builds try to take skill combinations and exploitation of monster AI to the limit.
- A too dumb AI is ridiculuos and boring, while a real smart one put people off.
- The AI has to react quick enough to be viable in the game.
etc, etc

I read an interview somewhere, where a ANet developer said they did not do "a lot" testing before releasing. I fully understand that approach. Thoroughly testing a thing like this must take time, a lot time. If things are not "mission-critica"l (and I certainly do not think they are in this case) it is much more efficient to do like Anet seems to do. Some limited testing - then release it and fix the issues the community (non-rivaled testing ground!) discovers. They have done it like that several times when it comes to skill balancing.

I trust Anet will come up with improvement on some of the issues today. However I never ever expect them to make a perfect AI everyone is content with.

Also one thing to keep in mind, people reading and posting on a thread about "AI problems" is probably biased to the negative side.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 02, 2006, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

Well it depends if you agree/disagree to my/most others post on this thread or not. Otherwise personal attacks will invite flames dear cheer leader.

Spending time planning an attack on a group of hard enemies and seening it work brings great thrills. But after a while spending 10 mins + on a group of mobs across a map with 20-30 groups of such enemies = frustration. Nor is playing the rez ping pong game with your party and mobs fun neither.

As to why i said what i did, it just pisses me off if Anet actually play their own game/patches and "dumbnet" reference is subtle imo

How about spend more time using your brain for strategy so that you dont suck at the game instead of calling me a "cheerleader" simply because I called you out on your immature behaviour?

I mean c'mon, calling ANET "DumbNET" just because you dont like the new A.I. is pretty damn childish.

PHoenix is cool · Nov 02, 2006, 08:03 AM // 08:03

I agree that this is ANET's mistake, but DumbNET.. lol
Yeah Tyria is a joke now, since everyone is on nightfall and factions there is no one you can team up with. I didn't mind that until they changed the AI and now i cant farm. So guildwars is no unplayable for me now.
Thanks Anet

Thallandor · Nov 02, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

How about spend more time using your brain for strategy so that you dont suck at the game instead of calling me a "cheerleader" simply because I called you out on your immature behaviour?

I mean c'mon, calling ANET "DumbNET" just because you dont like the new A.I. is pretty damn childish.

Well after all that, you still havent mention if you agree on the AI or not, or is your intention here purely here to flamebait and troll soggybottom?

Jugalator · Nov 02, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

I just find it strange that this update isn't listed on GuildWars.com.

It's almost as if they made these AI changes by mistake as part of some smaller non-noteworthy fix.

Dark Angle · Nov 02, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

It’s a game for having fun not for getting frustrated what was Anet thinking and not even bothering with a clarification this is really rude after all we played money to have fun? If I want a PVP I would go play PVP so why bring PVE to me?
If they want to keep PVP for real humans don’t let heroes in very simple

DA

9th Requiem · Nov 02, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Played since then, have yet to notice what all the fuss is about. Sure, it's slightly harder than when NF was initially released, I now have to lure enemies instead of charging in and killing everything. But a simple flag for the henchies followed by a longbow pull, and I have yet to suffer at all since then.

The cancelling of skills is annoying, but has yet to be disasterous for me. I still think that heroes makes things a little too easy.

Lagg · Nov 02, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Okay, now I'm just mad.

First the entire Hero nonsense, encouraging people everywhere to play alone or in small human teams and now this.

Now on-topic.

I don't like the new aggro system at all and I'm quickly losing interest in this Brave New World.

The fact that they've wanted to beef up the AI was good. Actually, right after Nightfall came out, the AI was PERFECT. AI front lines aggroed human front lines, while the midlines of both sides were attacking each others backlines. It made interesting fights, where, if one of either sides lines failed, the other group would win.

If the friendly front line failed, the enemy front line would move on the backline. If the friendly midline failed, the enemy front line would outdamage the friendly front line because of the enemy backline's better heals and the friendly frontline would fail too. If the friendly backline would fail at any point whatsoever, the fight would be over.

Who said that balanced PvE wasn't complicated?

Now if you're interested in an actual story, picture this scenario:

I'm a tank. Always been one, always will be. It's what I like to do. Sure I play some PvP where I obviously do not tank, but PvE has always been tanking for me. Maybe you think that's silly and I should "lrn2play othr clazzez nub", but I don't.

So I'm in a guild team with 4 human players (me included), somewhere around Vabbi or Desolation, I don't remember clearly. I'm the main aggro tank; another support tank is waiting in the back with the casters. I run in some mob of Margonites while the rest waits in the back. The mob consists of a few casters and a bunch of Dervishes. The casters just look at me funny for a second but then decide to cast their spells anyway and I take some flak (we didn't bring Spell Breaker for whatever reason).

Then it happens. The Dervishes don't move. At all. They just stand there. At first I'm confused. Is it just a case of broken aggro? This happens sometimes when a few monsters simply don't aggro at all, like the Skeletal Bonds in FoW. So I move towards their main casters. The Dervishes still don't move. At last, I tell my group to come within aggro range, as I'm starting to get in need of hex removal by now.

Then it happens. The Dervishes all spring into action and go straight for the monks. My jaw just drops to the floor as even the caster I'm chopping away at turns his attention towards someone else.

Now in the meantime I've laid my Axe and Shield aside and have been happily Hammer bashing away at uncaring enemies for the past day. I've developed a whole new love for Earthshaker.

But I'm no longer a tank.

I guess I just miss being a tank.